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Journal 070704

  • At eight o'clock we (Domingo, Chintu and I) were in Tzununa. Antonio (one of the interested farmers) was already there. We waited half an hour for Don Carlos.
  • We looked for a suitable place following the river downwards. Though there were some possibilities, there was none really easy to restructure. More importantly, they were all at quite some distance from the road. It would be hard to carry the concrete parts over the rocky terrain.
  • We agreed to restructure the terrain near the lower bridge of Tzununa (NB, this is another bridge than pointed on the Google Earth images I send you earlier).
  • We started with a try to deepen the part that is vertical in the drawn map. I soon realized that this wasn't a good idea when some one told me that the river can easily gain 50cm of height during heavy rain fall.
  • The part in between the river bend was more suitable, and with some effort a slope of 1,5 m over 5 m can be created.
  • We dammed of the river a little just after the bend to increase the water level a bit.
  • We made small dams to make the bassin in the part that goes about 2 or 3 meters land inwards rather horizontally.
  • Meanwhile we excavated the soil, which should be rather understood as removing stones.
  • Because of the dam and the risen waterlevel water started flowing through the place where the rampump will be poned. This was helpful to remove sand, but also created some landslides.
  • We lowered the waterlevel by removing a part of the first dam.
  • During this work two more people joined in, and at 12 o' clock the people went home to go to their fields.
  • We were also tired and decided to go home as well.
  • We're not ready yet with making the slope, but up till now even the bigger stones were removed easily. Now we have a slope of about 1 meter.
  • I think we can excavate the other half meter tomorrow.
  • The plan is to:
  • Take the rampump to Tzununa tomorrow by rented pickup.
  • Make a straight slope with rocks out of this gutter.
  • Place the heart block in it's place.
  • Build the pipes up the to dam.
  • The first pipe of the pump will than lay ON TOP of the dam.
  • The rest of the dam will be put on top of the first pipe, some 50 centimeters higher than the waterlevel, so the river won't destroy the hydram.
  • There is no need for the pump at this place. Up to the second bridge everything is coffee, which doesn't need irrigation.
  • Unfortunately there is also not much of a nearby hill. There is some 3 to 4 meters difference in height with the shore.
  • We could attach the hose to a pole or put it in a tree to demonstrate the water delivery at height.
  • The pump however will be well to see from the bridge that is part of one of the main roads.
  • I think that the people who cooperated with moving the rocks still don't have a real idea what it is all about. Nevertheless they were enthusiastic.

At home

  • I cut two wooden rings and the valve ring straight and to their right length.
  • I tensioned the iron wires for attaching the impuls valve by putting wooden wedges under the wires, on top of the heart block.
  • I hammered in pieces of wood into the four pieces of PE tube to close this leak
  • I made the beginning of the single direction valve.
  • The wood was kind of 'fibery' and many splints of wood tended to break on the inside of the valve ring.
  • This happend by cutting the wooden rings, but here it doesn't really matter to have some splints on the inside.
  • This was a small problem by making the taper valve seat in the valve ring.
  • Maybe the wood was a little fresh, or it was the type of wood (pine). I don't know.
  • The consequence was that I had to sand it more with the taper single direction valve.
  • This is not completely ready, but we're well on our way. The rest can be done tomorrow at 6 a.m.
  • I was unsatisfied with making the weight guidance out of wood with holes drilled into it. I could have burned it, but still it's not something that is easy in the field.
  • That's why I want to make this two small beams out of a split branche.
  • I will tie it together on to the iron beams that are on top of the heart block.
  • In the middle I will leave room for the weight guidance for the impuls valve.
  • Soon, foto's to clarify.
  • This counts for all the issues.
  • With some luck we have a working pump tomorrow. If not friday.

Journal 070703

  • Early this morning I went to Tzununa to see if there was a place where we could install the rampump right away.
  • There wasn't.
  • It is a very rocky river so we have to arrange the terrain first. This we will do wednesday.
  • I'm not sure if we can find a place that has a 2 meter slope over 5 meters length in an easy accessible place neither. I think I'll be satisfied with 1,5 meters as well, for it's a demonstration pump that only should take away any disbelieve that such a thing could work.
  • Now I have several possible places that could suit. I arranged with Don Carlos that we will arrange the river bed tomorrow, together with two locals, Domingo, Don Carlos and Chintu. This should be feasible.

  • I made a new impulse valve.
  • The one I made yesterday was to 'bumpy' on the inside and also showed some kinks. I wasn't satisfied.
  • These kinks might be the result of the violence you impose on the rubber while cutting. One might plastically deform the inner iron wire. This should be taken into account in the future.
  • I found another tire that looked well on the inside.
  • It appeared to be tougher to cut than the tire I had yesterday.
  • With some agression I made a nice looking valve.
  • The small rubber dams I removed with sand paper.

  • I mounted the valve in the heart block
  • I made two iron wire loops through the two PE tubes on both ends of the heartblock
  • I lowered the loops and put the valve through them.
  • Than I tightened the loops.
  • I'm not very satisfied with our new method of valve mounting.
  • Because it's clamped you have little control over the opening. You can only control it by weight.
  • We'll see how it works in practice. But I have my doubts about the progression.

  • Domingo made the ring to suit the single direction valve.
  • This time the inner hole was taper from ĝ5cm to ĝ4,5cm, like it is in the drawings.
  • The left over support ring on the outer part now also was made bigger and more straight.
  • Domingo rearranged the compass to engrave the 4,5cm circle. This took him quite some time, but in the end he had a perfect 4,5cm circle.

  • This afternoon I met two more people from Imap.
  • They work mostly on the other side of the lake, concentrated on vegetable farmers.
  • Romiro, one of the instructors was very interested in the rampump and wanted to join in right away in the Tzununa project. I said that he was more than welcome.
  • He also knew a place where the had a river but no water. I asked if this was by incidence 500meters higher than the river. The answer was yes...
  • Nevertheless he also knew another place where it would be possible.
  • An idea of Rony, the director of Imap, was to use the rampump in combination with (for example) a gasoline pump. The rampump could lift the first 20 or so meteres, this would help the other pump. What is the opinion of Demotech about such propoals? (NB it was just an idea, in questioning the possibilities of the ram).

  • I phoned some times with San Andres, but Francisco (the director of the cooperativa) was busy. Tomorrow the last try, before making a bypass.
  • The rest of the afternoon I cleaned the house and the garden. Two buckets full of stinking rotten mango's from our mango tree. Every place has it's own problems I guess.... ;)

Journal 070702

Today I started with setting up an e-mail that could be send to the different NGO's on the increasing list of NGO's that might be interested in the Rampump.

I also did some administration of the last period to recall receiptless costs that I made.


  • I called Vivamos Mejor. But for the moment they're not interested in the project. They work more in reforestation and they don't work in Tzununa nor San Andres Semetabaj.
  • This is strange because Lester Alfaro (who is working for Fundacion Solar in a reforestation project in Tzununa) told me that Vivamos Mejor is one of the project partners.
  • Anyhow, the engineer was polite and interested in the progress that I should show when I had made any.

  • Meanwhile Domingo made the sixth and last ring.

  • I went to the office of Fundacion Solar where the agriculture department was having a meeting. I talked with Don Carlos, represent of Tzununa, and we made the decision to instal the pump on wednesday. He would invite people, I would organize the rest.

  • I put the harvesting steel wire manual to the test. We needed the outer part of the tire anyway for the impuls valve.
  • Together with Domingo I went to internet and showed the Demotech site and showed some of the projects.
  • I printed the manual, translated in Spanish by Babelfish.
  • Domingo thought that 'gaining steel wire' would be a more appropriate name.
  • He read the instructions and without further instructions he cut the tire with my Rambo knive. This because all the saw blade knives somehow disappeared and we couldn't get another in the short time.
  • Though he had a guess, he didn't really know where the iron is in a tire.
  • He started too far away from the steel wire web.
  • I corrected and showed how easy it was to cut the rubber if you pull it open.
  • The other side he just cut with force, without opening. It looked as if this was also an easy way to do it. The knife however was quite hot, so I think it cost him some force.
  • The cutting away of the last rubber part didn't went easy. This because he didn't follow the instructions. When I showed that pulling the rubber makes things easier and a third hand is very welcome he agreed. After that he managed to pull the rubber himself and to cut the rubber.
  • He also cut the rubber on the inside of the loop. I told him that that wasn't necessary.
  • Than he pulled out the iron wire. This off course gives a very curly mess.
  • He agreed again that cutting away piece by piece is better.
  • Lesson learned: people don't read. It all seems so obvious that people don't see that it isn't obvious.
  • I think that this is a good manual to be tested more to learn what people do and don't learn from it. Good lessons in intercultural communication psychology.

  • Domingo left and I bought a bicycle tire and an air pump

  • I had already discovered that the inside of the car tire isn't to flat. It has a lot of rubber 'dams'. Unfortunately the on of the two tire repair shops didn't had any old car tires and the other was closed. Normally they have a pile of old car tires outside, so I'm afraid they're just taken away to the garbage heap.
  • I wanted to know how to cut the iron woven part with a cheap iron saw. In Maastricht we already discovered that there is a big difference in cutting ease when you have a weak and flexible bracket.
  • This is what we have here, and what the farmers will have at best.
  • In Maastricht we discovered that cutting with such a saw is difficult when the tire is clamped between to wooden beams.
  • So I tried it without.
  • It requires some concentration and patience, but it goes very well! Just drawing a line on the rubber.
  • It takes more time, but within an hour you have a nice impuls valve.
  • I propose to forget about the wooden beams.

  • I also owe you the results of the tile making on plastic. Here are some pictures.

When the wiki is ready I'll put them here is.


  • Just finished, Ricardo called that the director of Imap was in the office of Fundación Solar. I changed cloths and rushed there.
  • Imap works in perma culture. As far as I understood is that they look for possibilities to optimally use the terrain.
  • They work a lot with farmers and he knew of the existence of the rampump concept.
  • I showed the video and he was enthused by it.
  • Because he had to leave for his hotel in another village we exchanged phone numbers and agreed to talk the other day again.
  • During the conversation Kim also joined in. I talked to her later that evening.
  • Kim is a woman who is an (ex?) Peace Corpse volunteer.
  • She works together with Fundación Solar on investigating and mapping agricultural production areas and consumption markets all around Lake Atitlan.
  • While export is the norm, she wants to see what is possible locally and than look for means to export the remains. Sounds very sane to me.
  • She also knew about rampumps and had once seen one that didn't need a height difference. I didn't believe her and she doubted, but she has pictures.
  • She is very willing to think of suitable locations and maybe she needs one herself in some part of her project.
  • She is looking for drip irrigation systems and I told that we also have ideas about that, that we want to try.

Journal 070629

  • Because of perpetual misunderstanding, getting late, missing transport connections I was not less than two hours late at my appointment in San Andres.
  • The people that were waiting all the time had just left. The people of the municipality (where the meeting would have been) were very kind to take me to two farmers that travelled in vain to San Andres.
  • Before I knew I was in the middle of nowhere. Yes, they had a big river.... 500 meters below there fields.
  • They understood well that it wouldn't be possible to use the hydram. They weren't even disappointed. I discovered the strongest community spirit I had ever seen.
  • Some 86 farmers were renting about 8 hectares of very good terrain from a landlord that basically owned the whole village and a few adjacent villages as well. They have been asking permission for 12 years to rent the place. Now they are allowed to rent it for 5 years (since one year), after that the landlord will sell the land for about €150.000,- Collectively now they set their minds to gain so much money in five years that they can buy it. In fact the farmer told me there well on there way (while paying €1875,- rent a year). The only thing lacking is water in the dry season. Now they want to buy collectively three gasoline pumps that each can lift 200 meters. Put in series with intermediate tanks they should be able to lift the water from the river. And harvest two times a year.
  • He told it without a sigh, only the fire of enthusiasm in his eyes.

I returned to Panajachel (still on the other side of the lake) to have lunch with Chintu in the famous uruguayan restaurant. We had exquisitely prepared meat for the relatively enormous amount of 7 euros p.p.

Than we went to the office of Vivamos Mejor. An NGO I heard of that does basically all kinds of projects.

  • Looking at the office they very well take care of themselves.
  • It was friday 16 pm, so everybody was gone, except for the office assistant. He was not very willing to answer my questions, but I left the office with the phone number of an agricultural engineer and a brochure of the NGO.
  • They had no interest or what so ever in micro entrepreneurship or anything that was related to the stool (as far as I had the opportunity to explain).
  • Strange because 'vivamos mejor' means 'let's live better'. Maybe another persons is more willing to cooperate.

After that I went quickly back to San Andres.

  • I (finally) found the head of the cooperativa. He didn't had time, but it was a very nice guy that thought the same of me as well. I easily stretched my 10 minutes to 15 minutes.
  • He really liked the idea and the video, but the cooperativa is more concentrated on trade. He was very enthusiastic about the idea and stated it's very suitable in the village. I think so too.
  • There is another organisation in the village, but the office was closed by than. The chief of the cooperative promised to arrange a new meeting with the farmers and this organisation on tuesday.
  • This is too long, but I appreciate his assistance. I'm going to look for a bypass.
  • Leaving the conversation the rain was really pouring out of the sky. In ten minutes the streets had turned into raging rivers of 10 centimeters at the points that were the less deep. I really had to go home and a tuktuk could arrange the trip back. Tuktuk's aren't made to drive continuously in deep water so halfway I had to push, because it wouldn't start anymore.
  • But seriously. In the future I will prepare better to spend the night in an unexpected place, because it's really dangerous to transport in this weather. There were several landslides and an uncountable amount of mudstreams. We passed a car that was hit by a fallen tree and a truck that semi-controlled ran downhill hill with burning brakes. A tuktuk is little more than a motorized umbrella with three wheels. Also being on the lake while there is a lot of lightning also doesn't sound very clever. In my case it was clearly several kilometers away, but still.

Journal 070628

  • I started the day with some necessary writing on feedbacks and administration while Domingo made another two wooden rings.
  • Around midday I started the production of the tiles.
  • I bought a wooden board of approx. 30 x 240 centimeters, one side planed.
  • I cut it into because that would be more practical.
  • Then I nailed the sideboards on top of the plastic
  • With the printed PDF I nailed the holes for the spaak positions
  • I made the holes a bit deeper
  • The spaken were cut in two and put in the holes
  • With the car tire wire I made the armament.

picture

  • As you can see on the picture (sorry for the blur, but on the little screen it appeared sharp)
  • the wire had the tendency to break, which of course is a sign of not being softened well enough
  • I don't get it how you can keep the U-shapes up with only two wires, that's why I decided to put them in afterwards in the wet concrete.

picture

  • And this is the result, filled with concrete (1 to 3)
  • I made three large (20 x 15) tiles, to make another heartblock and air bottle tomorrow.
  • Then the experimented with the sheet metal wedge for the water outlet of the heartblock

picture

  • I cut the shape in the same way as the wooden wedge.
  • I bend one side and nailed it on the board
  • In this way it doesn't really matter where you put the nails, as long as the position to the side bar is correct.

picture

  • After that I bent al sides and put it back into it's place.

picture

  • The wedge had the tendency to fall a bit to one side. To avoid this I bend the nails both ways so the wedge was stable.
  • The wedge is a little curved. Maybe we should fold the edges in the future.
  • Generally it looked very good to me.

picture

  • I also put spaken in there position.
  • The tubes of PE I just loosely put on top of the plastic, they were held in place by the iron wire.

picture

  • Here a detail of the armament.
  • I used 'normal' iron wire, because I ran out of car tire wire. I was in a hurry because it was getting dark.
  • As you can see I experience troubles in keeping the plastic straight.

picture

  • I straightened the plastic as much as I could and filled the mold with concrete (1 to 3)
  • Put in the U shapes
  • Removed air bubbles
  • And try to straighten the plastic again by pulling it.
  • Tomorrow I can show you the results.

Now some questions.

  • Aren't we going back to where we were? By this I mean the small boards with the sheet metal sides. In comparison with this way we only missed the flexibility of shape. Now we have less possibility to remove air bubbles and a wooden board that is just as expensive. Please explain.
  • In addition, you the the 'sandwich' idea was fiercely rejected; we wanted 'inserts'. Now we have a sandwich construction again. Please explain.
  • Can you also explain the difference between nails and spaken? To me it seems the same, except that wrongs are harder to get..
  • No offense, just wanting to know.
  • Now we are continuing our conversation in english, would it be appropriate to buy ourselves a nice dictionary of VanDalen sponsored by Vodafone? The mac version costs:
  • Of course there are many translation sites on the internet, but it's only often that I have access to the world wide web.

Journal 070625

  • Een tegel gemaakt, dit keer met foto's

picture

  • Gewoon plastic op een vlak stukje grond. Bij de 'ringtegels' is het toch niet zo belangrijk dat het supervlak is.
  • Spijkers in de grond geslagen, omdat het met spaken niet zo goed lukte. De positie had ik uitgemeten. Snel eens een PDF maken.
  • De wikkelingen heb ik anders gedaan dan jij. Ik begreep niet helemaal hoe het bij jouw zit (FB). De wanden hebben nu geen wapening, maar hebben dat ook niet echt nodig.
  • De wikkelingen vond ik erg springerig. Door torsie in de draad willen de wikkelingen omhoog springen van de spijkers af. Misschien komt het omdat het uitgloeien niet helemaal lekker is gelukt. Hoe ervaar jij dit? (FB!)

picture

  • Op deze foto zie je het gevolg van de springerige draden.
  • Deze keer had ik direct na het aansmeren van de tegel de spijkers er uitgetrokken om geen gaten te creëren, zoals bij de vorige tegel.
  • Hierdoor gebeurde wat ik verwachtte. De rode pijlen wijzen een wikkeling aan die na het uittrekken van de spijkers omhoog sprong. Geen ramp, maar toch.

picture

  • Domingo maakte ondertussen een ring van dennenhout (vuren?).
  • Het hout was al redelijk droog. Ik verwacht hier geen problemen met barsten.
  • Op de foto zie je Domingo met kraspasser voor binnen en buitenkant.

picture

  • Met een 1/2 " houtbeitel maakte hij stukje bij beetje het gat.

picture

  • En dit is het resultaat.

picture

  • Daarna hakte hij keurig de buitenkant zodat hij mooi in de eikplaat met cirkelvormige uitsparing paste.
  • Ondertussen werkte ik verder aan de tegels en naaide ik een tweede rubberzak voor de volgende luchtfles.
  • Daarbij praatten we over hout en verkrijgbaarheid. Ik ben er uit en het is weer eenvoudig.
  • Bomen groeien of in het bos, of in de koffieplantages voor schaduw.
  • Het bos is erg ver.
  • Bomen worden wel gekapt, maar ze zijn eigendom van de (koffie)boer.
  • Mensen zonder koffie plantage moeten gewoon erg ver lopen of het kopen. Dit is duur. 1 lading (wat iemand op zijn rug mee kan nemen) kost 30 Quetzal (3 euro).
  • De eigenaar vindt simpelweg niet goed als anderen zijn bomen snoeien die én goed zijn voor zijn koffie én zijn eigen huis van brandhout voorzien.
  • NB. Koffie hoeft geen irrigatie en is dus geen rampompdoelgroep.
  • NB2 Groenten groeien niet in de schaduw van een boom.
  • Een ander gespreksonderwerp was de burgeroorlog. Ricardo wilde van Domingo weten wat er in San Juan is gebeurd. Ricardo dacht (net als ik) dat hier niet veel gebeurd is. Dat is niet waar, er wordt gewoon niet over gepraat. De misdadigers wonen nog gewoon ongestraft hier in het dorp. Moeilijk voor de slachtoffers, zoals de kinderen van de oom en tante van Domingo die respectievelijk 'verdween' en in koele bloede in huis werd vermoord.
  • Wat ik ook niet wist is dat er tussen de drie- en vierhonderd dorpen compleet zijn uitgemoord op beestachtige wijze. Onder toeziend oog van Amerikaanse 'observers' die voor de internationale gemeenschap rapport uitbrachten.
  • Kun jij je iets herinneren uit de media van de jaren 80 over het conflict in Guatemala? Volgens mij is dit redelijk onzichtbaar gebleven voor de media. (FB)
  • Ik heb een aantal organisaties gebeld. Slechts een nam op.
  • Het gaat om de cooperativa in San Andres Semetabaj, aan de overkant van het meer. De man was erg enthousiast en vrijdagochtend mag ik mijn verhaal doen. Ik zo duidelijk mogelijk uitgelegd wat het inhoud (ik ben wel eens in dit dorp geweest en ik weet dat ze veel groenten verbouwen en een redelijke rivier hebben). Ik heb expliciet gevraagd om minstens 10 boeren die geen mogelijkheid voor irrigatie hebben, maar dit wel nodig hebben uit te nodigen. Dit was volgens de man geen probleem. Ben benieuwd.
  • Tot slot heb ik nog wat Google Earth plaatjes. Let op de coordinaten. Zo moet je het zelf ook kunnen vinden en het in 3D bekijken. Een loflied aan Google Earth.

picture

  • Hier Tzununa. De brug is de betonnen brug uit de video. Plaats 2 zou bijvoorbeeld een andere plaats van installatie kunnen zijn. De punaises links zijn respectievelijk 40 meter hoger dan de brug of plaats 2. (Je kunt zien hoe hoog je zit als je de cursor beweegt, dit lijkt redelijk nauwkeurig.)
  • Op de foto, ongeveer 1 inch links van de meest linkse punaise is er een groene kloof. Dit is een waterval. Geeft alleen water in de regentijd en wordt dan door de boeren op de helling gebruikt voor irrigatie middels slangen.

picture

  • Hier San Andres Semetabaj.
  • De kronkelende strook bomen die links onderin de foto verdwijnt is volgens mij de rivier. De velden liggen hier links van. Let ook op het meer. Rechts van de vulkaan aan de baai ligt San Juan, waar we nu zitten. Zichtbaar maar ver.

Journal 070624

  • Ik heb wat foto' s gemaakt van het hartblok en de luchtfles.

picture

Hier zie je de binnenkant van het hartblok. We wisten het al, maar te zien is dat het impulsaanslagvlak mooi vlak is. Fijn dat we het überhaupt kunnen zien, iets wat bij de vorige versie niet kon.

picture

Op deze foto hou ik mijn vinger achter de luchtfles. We kijken dus dwars door de luchtfles heen op een plek waar je straks nog net de opvoerklep kunt zien. Spannend of het werkt.

picture

Hier de moeilijke foto van de binnenkant van de luchtfles. Het lijkt er op dat het rubber goed aan het beton hecht. De driekant genaaide rubber sok was van zichzelf zeker niet rond. Een zacht bedje voor de opgepompte fietsband straks.

  • Het verwijderen van de kaarsvet ring uit de tegel middels inzagen met een ijzerzaagje ging redelijk.
  • Het is moeilijk om te zien waar het beton begint en waar het zagen op moet houden. Ik had het beton licht geraakt, maar dit was met de vinger weg te poetsen.
  • Bij het uitdrukken brak de kaarsvetring in twee.
  • Het terugplaatsen was erg moeilijk en ik kreeg het ook niet goed voor elkaar.
  • Kunnen we de kaarsvet ring niet laten zitten tot de buis gegoten is en ongeveer drie dagen oud is? Het inspecteren van het oppervlak is belangrijk, maar kleine luchtbelletjes kunnen we nawerken in het nog redelijk verse beton. Stel dat er grote dingen mis zijn, kun je die ook zien als de kaarsvet ring nog in de tegel zit.
  • Gewerkt aan de administratie en dan vooral aan een automatisch gekoppeld verklaringsblad in het kader van wat normaal het bonnenblad is. Bekijk het bekritiseer.
  • Noa heeft gelijk denk ik dat uitgaven nooit plus kunnen zijn. Stel ik schiet iets voor en noteer dat als 'plus'. Vervolgens betaald Demotech mij dat terug en noteert dat als 'min'. Dan is de som 'nul' en is er dus nooit een uitgave geweest.
  • Beter zo. Uitgaven zijn 'min'. Stel ik schiet iets voor, dan noteer ik een 'min' onder mijn naam. Voor mij is het een reële uitgave. In de inkomsten/uitgaven kolom noteer ik niks. Voor Demotech is er tenslotte nog geen uitgave geweest. Wel noteer ik ook een 'min' in het projectblok. Voor het project is er dan nog wel geen echte uitgave geweest, maar dit is voor het overzicht. Bij terug betalen plaatst Demotech een 'min' in de uitgaven kolom en een 'plus' in mijn kolom. Zo kom ik op 'nul' en heeft Demotech een uitgave gedaan. In het projectblok doet Demotech verder niets. Zo moet het kloppen volgens mij.
  • Als we het toch over geld hebben: wanneer wil jij het geld voor Noa?
  • Je had gezegd een kwart van het vliegticket van Chintu mee te willen betalen. Geldt dit nog steeds?
  • Het grootste deel van de dag genoten van de gezelligheid hier in het dorp.

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Page last modified on July 05, 2007, at 04:54 AM